From: st000063@hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de (Robert Born)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Û²±°  more INFO & QUESTIONS about "TRUH SERUM"  °±²Û
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:47:21 GMT
Message-ID: 

hi everybody

thank to all of you for your attention and help in this subject.
you all brought a lot of usefull comments and experiences which 
i will summarize in this posting. 
a few clever scientist just send me their med-line, etc search. 
for this i will forward to everyone who is interested in.
maybe some net-users are still know more in this subject. 
they are wellcome to reply to me or to post in the newsgroup again.

i think that some questions concerning a more psychological and 
social effect are worth to be thought, too.

do you know any ("scientific") reports about involuntary pentothal 
drug abuse or any kind of "disease" (ptsd,...), 
psycological or social disorders caused by this drug?
what will happen to a person if this substance is applicated 
over a longer period of time with or without contradiction 
of amphetamines or lsd?
which social results will occur if this person is psychologicaly 
stressed through "dejavue" or other forms of repression in order 
to break his\her strenght of will?

any kind of suggestions or hints are higly appreciated.

now, here's a collection of the postings from several newsgroups.
the names of the senders are withheld. 

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>: I was wondering whether anyone knows the truth about truth serum? 
>: Sodium pentothal I think. Does it work, and if so how? 

>Well, it can remove your inhibitions against talking. The problem
>is, you can be led to say just about anything desired.

I think that's a pretty accurate summary.  I'll try to provide a few details
as well.

I believe it is a barbiturate (Thiopental Sodium), making the 
neural membrane more permeable to chloride ions, resulting in
general inhibition, starting with the cortex and working down to the
lower brain regions with increasing biological effect.  

I think the effects are something like the following :

At an appropriate dosage, you get just enough neural inhibitory effect
to create an alcohol-like disinhibition of normal behavioral restraints.

At a higher dosage, but not high enough to cause unconsciousness, you may 
create a stupor and inhibit independent thought and action to a greater 
extent.  The result is that you become more suggestible and less
willful.  A context for either recalling memories or constructing
new ones may then be created by an operator.  The actual verity of 
the testimony achieved in this manner will be impossible to determine
from the session alone, however.  

I think there is some overlap with the old practice of using ethyl ether to
aid in obtaining psychodynamic 'catharsis,' which may or may not
relate to actual events in the patients personal history, 
and overlap with some aspects of the use of hypnosis for similar purposes.
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from The Merck Index:

Preparation is covered by US Patents 2,153,729 (1939), 2,876,225 (1959).

"Yellowish-white hygroscopic powder.  Alliaceous, garlic-like odor.  Sol
in water, alcohol...."

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        Sodium pentothal can be used in conjunction with hypnosis
as a "truth serum".  It is not the only drug used, and the degree
of usefullness lies with both the skill of the physician estimating
dosage and the hypnotist.  "Trilene" (triacetylethylene??) is also
used via inhalation.  Essentially, the drug is used to reduce
resistance to the hypnotist, who then has to frame questions and
evoke responses in a way likely to produce accurate answers.  There
are several problems.  Too little narcotic and the subject may be
able to fake through the situation.  Too much and they're unconscious
-- if not dead.  In addition, the issue of accuracy is a can of 
worms.
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Yeah ok. I was wondering about Scolpamine. I thought this was used as a
truth drug. Is it? I think in high doses it kills but does anybody have
any info
on the effects? eg which receptors it vapes, things like that.

Intoxication is the most common recreational persuit in history.
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>[Sodium pentothal stuff]
>
>I think there is some overlap with the old practice of using ethyl ether to
>aid in obtaining psychodynamic 'catharsis,' which may or may not
>relate to actual events in the patients personal history, 
>and overlap with some aspects of the use of hypnosis for similar purposes.

This reminds me...does anyone know anything about inducing abreaction
through the use of carbogen (I may have the name wrong), a mixture of
common gases (just O2 and CO2?) in certain proportions.  This is or was,
I believe, a therapeutic technique rather similar to that described
above.  But what exactly is abreaction?  And carbogen?  What's the
connection?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sodium pentothal can be used in conjunction with hypnosis
as a "truth serum".  It is not the only drug used, and the degree
of usefullness lies with both the skill of the physician estimating
dosage and the hypnotist.  "Trilene" (triacetylethylene??) is also
used via inhalation.  Essentially, the drug is used to reduce
resistance to the hypnotist, who then has to frame questions and
evoke responses in a way likely to produce accurate answers.  There
are several problems.  Too little narcotic and the subject may be
able to fake through the situation.  Too much and they're unconscious
-- if not dead.  In addition, the issue of accuracy is a can of 
worms.
        For the record, I'm just summarizing several books and
articles off the top of my head.  Any serious overview of hypno-
therapy for the medical professional probably includes a section
on "narco-hypnosis", "drug-induced hypnosis", or "drug-assisted
hypnosis".  There have also been quite a few articles lately 
concerning false memory syndrome.  Even when hypnosis is not
involved, they are germane.  Take a look in "The New Yorker" sometime
in June or July for a two part article on a person who confessed
to ritual satanic child abuse after repeated "praying" on the
subject.
        You really should cross post this query to alt.hypnosis.
====================================================================
Try:
        Gottschalk, L. A. (1961). The use of drugs in interrogation. In A. D.
        Biderman & H. Zimmer (Eds.), _The manipulation of human behavior_ (pp.
        96-141). New York, NY: John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

This article provides 136 references for further info.
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>Is there any evidence that sodium pentathol would make someone tell the 
>truth, and if NOT, was it ever commonly *thought* that it would?  Was/Is 
>the drug used in psychiatry?  Are there any other such drugs that have the 
>potential for being used for this purpose?
>

I've used Amytal (a similar drug) for this purpose in hysterical patients.
It does work.  The patient will often drop the hysterical symptoms after
being given a dose IV.  If you give too much, it puts them to sleep
though.  I haven't used thiopental sodium, and don't know of any
who do, other than anesthesiologists who use it to induce sleep.
Lay use of these drugs would be very dangerous, since overdose can
be lethal.  You have to be prepared to intubate and support respirations,
as some patients stop breathing when given these.  As for Burt and Lori,
it's a grandstand stunt.  Any doctor that would agree to be part of it
should have his license revoked.  Any use other than by doctors is illegal.
These drugs are not playthings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After seeing a snibbet of the interview with Burt Reynolds the other night
where he "challenged" Loni to submit to a `truth serum test' (a chemical
lie detector test?), it occurred to me that it's been many years since I've
heard sodium pentathol referred to as truth serum, and I think the referen-
ces to it I *did* hear were all in the movies (spy movies, probably).

Is there any evidence that sodium pentathol would make someone tell the 
truth, and if NOT, was it ever commonly *thought* that it would?  Was/Is 
the drug used in psychiatry?  Are there any other such drugs that have the 
potential for being used for this purpose?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>After seeing a snibbet of the interview with Burt Reynolds the other night
>where he "challenged" Loni to submit to a `truth serum test' (a chemical
>lie detector test?), it occurred to me that it's been many years since I've
>heard sodium pentathol referred to as truth serum, and I think the referen-
>ces to it I *did* hear were all in the movies (spy movies, probably).
>
>Is there any evidence that sodium pentathol would make someone tell the 
>truth, and if NOT, was it ever commonly *thought* that it would?  Was/Is 
>the drug used in psychiatry?  Are there any other such drugs that have the 
>potential for being used for this purpose?

I remember reading somewhere that it can't actually make someone tell the
truth.  Instead, it has a tranquillizing effect, and makes telling a lie
more difficult.  (Apparently, lying takes more mental effort than telling
the truth, and is more difficult to do when a person is tranquillized.)  I
also heard that sodium amytal has a similar effect.
******************************************************************************
The BBC reported this bit about Burt challenging Loni to take sodium
pentathol on national TV and each report on how many people they had
adultered each other with.

The beeb noted that sodium pentathol was a potent tranquilizer and not
a so-called "truth-serum", but added that perhaps it would render them
both comatose and then they'd just shut up, which is appealing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>...
>I believe it is a barbiturate (Thiopental Sodium), making the 
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you sure about this? I'm surprised that it is unrelated to the
scopolamine/atropine family of drugs, which have been put to the
same use. Does anyone know which is the more effective "truth serum"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: >...
: >I believe it is a barbiturate (Thiopental Sodium), making the 
:                    ^^^^^^^^^^^
: Are you sure about this?

YUP.

 I'm surprised that it is unrelated to the
: scopolamine/atropine family of drugs, which have been put to the
: same use. Does anyone know which is the more effective "truth serum"?

These other things are cholinergics, and are 'delerients'. They
distort perception, and sometimes make the subject easier to manipulate.

Barbs were used in the 50s by psychiatrists for 'narcosynthesis',
to disinhibit a patient and attempt to uncover repressed whatevers.

There really isn't any 'good' truth serum, despite decades of
government experimentation.  They are sometimes useful as part of
a larger system of interrogation involving isolation, torture,
indoctrination, etc.  The problem is that people are liable to
babble nonsense when given 'truth serums'.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
x  writes about barbiturates being truth serum:

>: Are you sure about this?
>
>YUP.

OK, I agree with this.

> I'm surprised that it is unrelated to the
>: scopolamine/atropine family of drugs, which have been put to the
>: same use. Does anyone know which is the more effective "truth serum"?
>
>These other things are cholinergics

Huh? I think you mean anti-cholinergics.  Last time I checked these
were considered anti-muscarinic agents that function via *competitive*
antagonism of ACh actions, meaning, therefor, that by increasing the
concentration of ACh at the receptor sites the antagonism can be
overcome.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>: I was wondering whether anyone knows the truth about truth serum?
>: Sodium pentothal I think. Does it work, and if so how?
Sodium pentothal is the most commonly used induction agent for general
anesthesia.  It acts, supposedly, at the barbiturate site of the GABA-A
chloride channel super complex, which is the primary inhibitory
neurotransmitter channel in brain.  At a dosage which does not cause
sleep, or rather unconciousness, disinhibition does occur.  I am not an
expert on disinhibitory phenomena, but if you are interested, you might
check into another drug called propofol (diisopropylphenol) which seems
to have a similar if not greater effect.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barbiturates acts primarily through activation of, or allosteric action
on, the GABAA chloride complex.  A reasonable starting point sort of
review was written by Richard Olsen from UCLA and was published in the
International Anesthesiology Clinics 26:254,1988.  You also might try a
chapter on intravenous anesthetics in one of the three major anesthesia
textbooks.  Most of the information that you are interested in was
procured in similar ways to the procedure you describe.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas, Gordon. Journey into Madness: The True Story of Secret CIA
     Mind Control & Medical Abuse. 06/1990. Paper. $5.95. (ISBN
     0-553-28413-4). Bantam Books, Incorporated.

thank you for your very helpful investigation                   """         
and furthermore friendly communication                        -(o o)-     
-----------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo---
      robert born - wilhelminenplatz 15a - 64283 darmstadt - 
      germany - 06151/27342 st000063@hrz1.hrz.th-darmstadt.de              
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