In article <1519500004@igc.apc.org> e writes:
>
>  Does anyone have information or experiences regarding Passionflower
>in high doses?  About the harmines and harmalines in general?
>
Yes, in fact. A few years ago, several friends and I boiled down about five
pounds of _Passiflora incarnata_ vines and leaves (removing only the ripe
and unripened fruit) in three changes of water (i.e., we boiled it down
very low, added a second potful, then repeated this process, then did this
once more). About five people ingested the boiled mixture, with some dilution,
sugar, and lemon (yep! Passionflower makes a _great_ and tasty ice tea! :>).
Within about 20 minutes, we all began to experience some profound 
behavioral shifts, all of us acting in a more "primal" manner. We were also
quite energized and "up", with some slight distortion of colors. This very
fun state lasted about three hours or so, followed by a very deep sleep in
which all involved experienced quite profound dream states.
	Passionflower is, therefore, pretty interesting stuff. If you're
lucky enough to be in a part of the country where it grows wild (these
experiences I'm relating happened in Tennessee), get familiar with what the
plant looks like and pick yourself a bunch. Please, though, wait until the
end of the growing season and leave _lots_ of ripe fruit behind; don't spoil
the bounty for the next folks (or for yourself next year!).

>  -- Etan

D.A.C. Crowell
Computer Music Project/School of Music
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
(dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu)

========================================================================

I recommend some caution with any Passiflora species because of the
cyanide content.  In the plant, this isn't present as free cyanide --
it's in one or more compounds called cyanogenic glycosides.  If you
crush a leaf, enzymes present in the leaf will break down the cyanogenic
glycosides to release free hydrogen cyanide (you know, the stuff they
use in the gas chamber).

The question with this recipe is: how much cyanide would you get?  This
depends on --

(1) How much of the cyanogenic glycoside is present in this species?  I
know there's some -- I tested it myself, some years back -- but I don't
have good quantitative data, and the amount is likely to vary depending
on what part of the plant you test, what conditions it was grown under,
etc.  My gut feeling is that 1 pound of Passiflora incarnata per person
would be a big risk IF you actually ingested all the cyanide it could
generate.  Which brings us to...

(2) How much of the cyanogenic glycoside is broken down into cyanide
during the processing?  This depends on lots of things, like whether you
crush the leaves before boiling.

(3) How much hydrogen cyanide remains in the brew after boiling it down?
If the pH is acid enough, it might all get boiled off.  Maybe.  (But
leave a window open!)

(4) If any of the original cyanogenic glycoside remains in the final
product, can it be broken down by enzymes in the body or by bacteria in
the gut?

I'm not sure what to suggest; answering all of the above questions would
be a substantial project.  Perhaps the recipe could be modified to
ensure that 100% of the hydrogen cyanide (and the cyanogenic glycoside)
is destroyed or driven off during processing.  But I don't know of a
do-it-in-your-kitchen quantitative cyanide assay one could use to test
the outcome.

By the way, all of the above also applies to large doses of Damiana
(alias Turnera aphrodisiaca, if I remember right).

===================================
Bill Statler (wstatler@holonet.net)
Pasco, Washington, USA

=============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.drugs
From: pierre@media.mit.edu (Pierre St. Hilaire)
Subject: Re: harmala questions
Message-ID: <1993Jun30.171239.21112@news.media.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 17:12:39 GMT


>In my experience, Passionflower is too weak a source of beta-carbolines
>of the right type to be of much use; hundreds of grams of the stuff
>is not as useful as 3g of P.harmala. The best results of my
>experiments involved eating about 70 passionflower 4:1 concentrate
>pills (which was no mean feat) and then having a change in
>the intensity and the quality of smoked DMT. Oral DMT was still
>apparently inactive.
>

	This is also my personal experience. I once made a tea out of
100 g of passionflower and experienced nothing (did not take any DMT
at the same time, though). I then tried to extract the beta-carbolines
with the procedure described in R.E. Manske "The Alkaloids" (I posted
the recipe a while ago) which works fine with P Harmala seeds. I
started with 500 g of passionflower and ended up with no detectable
amouns of alkaloids. Does someone on the net have exact references to
the presence of beta carbolines in passionflower?

					Pierre St Hilaire
					MIT Media Lab